Revenge of the nerds

[Dr. BUGMAN]

I don't really have anything salient to add vis-a-vis Choas Emeralds; y'all clearly have put in more consideration there. But I do have a few observations, some perhaps blindingly obvious. First off, the colors the CEs took on from Sonic R-onwards are the two sets of primary colors, the additive RGB and the subtractive CMY plus white/silver which is all the additives combined in light.

Oddly, the magenta Emerald is more purple from SA1-onward, which would be unremarkable if it not for both appearing in Sonic 2.



The thing here is that from the arrangement it's clear they were basing them on the outmoded RBY model, with the blue arguably being just a light blue rather than cyan, despite cyan being more distinct from blue than any secondary or tertiary color is from their respective parent color, hence its place in the subtractive trifecta.

The opposing colors of the R"B"Y are complimentary secondary colors derived from the outmoded model. Green is opposing Red (when more accurately cyan is its opposite). Purple is opposing yellow (when more accurately blue is its opposite). However, instead of orange opposing "blue" as would be expected, it's instead pink(maybe magenta); this suggests that the lighter blue was opted for its traditional gender implications of masculinity opposing the feminine pink, i.e., it's Jungian.

White, notably takes its place at the center as it's naturally all of them combined.

All this is presumably dropped for the more modern primary models even as early as Sonic 3 if orange was opted for instead of yellow for whatever reason, thereby rendering the distinction of pink and purple moot. This allows magenta to come across as either pink or purple for whatever the occasion demands (save for a few dubious entries such as Sonic the Fighters); after all magenta and purple are often synonymous.

Interestingly, Sonic 1 would be RGBCMY had it opted for cyan instead of white. This might make Sonic 2 to be the one game to base its scheme on RBY.

If you count orange as a type red, which you could inasmuch as it's a type of yellow, then even Flickies Island fits RBGCMY+W.

[Frieza2000]

S3K theory is a nope.jpg. Looks like the manual clearly states "7 Chaos Emeralds" and the "Pillar" is already underground.

Yeah, it would also color the opening scene of Sonic 3 a little oddly. As we understand it now, Knuckles thought he was stealing his emeralds back from Sonic, after which he retreated to give Sonic one last chance to turn around and leave (while preparing a few traps in expectation that he would not). If the manual were referring to the Master Emerald then...Knuckles was just stealing 7 random gems from the invader. I mean, he could probably sense they were the same kind of gem, like you implied. Maybe the goal would've been to remove Super Sonic from the equation...but if he'd come to neutralize the threat then why run away after taking the gems instead of defeating Sonic and throwing him off the island?

The whole point of Eggman studying the Super Ring was to use it as a backdoor to Hidden Palace. At the end of the game, Eggman and Metal Sonic disappear inside the ring and it's boss fight time. You fight Red Metal Sonic even if you have all the Chaos Rings so what is powering him? I posit the Master Emerald, just like with the Mecha Sonic fight in S&K.

I've always been fond of the idea of using ring portals to remotely connect to a power source (for instance, opening a portal next to each of the 7 emeralds so that they're effectively all together, allowing you to use the power of all 7 while only physically possessing 1). But I think you're forgetting the story again.

Furthermore, he found two rings that were spitting images of the Super-Rings that were on the Floating Island. These were ancient Special Rings that had been used before the legendary civilization had been lost.

"With these, I'll find my way right back to the Master Emerald!"

Dr. Eggman was pleased with his discovery, but the "Stone of Power" that the Special Rings should have led him to had already been transferred [to somewhere else] in the Floating Island by the descending gods. However, the energy of the "Pillar" permeated in the mysterious space the Special Rings produced, and they crystallized into the Chaos Rings.

The Special Ring did take Eggman to Hidden Palace, but the Master Emerald had already been moved to the SA1 shrine. But the Pillar was still there, and it created the Chaos Rings right in front of him. He studied those to create the Dark Rings. Now, he DID also say, "If I search out the secret of the Special Rings, I'll not only get the secret of the rings that Sonic and his friends carry, but I'll also be able to summon the Master Emerald!" So maybe he had the idea of locking on to the Master Emerald's signal at some point and stealing it. But I think the cutscene shows clearly that Metal Sonic bonds with a Super Dark Ring (and Eggman presumably ends up in some kind of cockpit...or just temporarily fuses with him, DBZ style). In the bad ending we see this same Super Dark Ring destroy whatever Chaos Rings you have, Eggman pokes his head out of the ring and mocks you, then Metal Sonic burns a city. In the good ending, the combined power of all 6 Chaos Rings is presumably enough to destroy the Super Dark Ring (don't know why they didn't show that), thus de-powering Metal Sonic and preventing the bad ending. It is admittedly possible that the Super Dark Ring is acting as a portal to an energy source and its destruction simply cuts Metal Sonic off, but there's no hint of that, much less that Eggman managed to find the Master Emerald and remotely link to it.

Also,

[Dr. BUGMAN]

It's probably a derailment to go on about color theory here (if so, then a mod can break off my brain droppings into a new thread), but I have some other observations I want to point out. Furthering my weirdo fixation with the RBY theme, it's now the secondary colors in Sonic's world--purple, orange, & green.





First off, is of course Amy. This particular image is sort of cheating on my part since this is the one and only game where classic Amy's shoes are overtly purple, whereas they're typically more of a powder blue. Either way, her fur could count as a de facto purple as I've discussed earlier. The point is, I've seen accusations of her scheme as "random"(or words to that effect), but the intention is clear that she was supposed to complement Sonic's primaries with secondaries.

Admittedly, it really is not accomplished as subtly Sonic's scheme. Regardless, it is a neat concept absent from Eukawa's makeover... unless her green irises and golden bracelets are meant to complete the trifecta, but, nah, that'd be stretching subtlety to the breaking point...



Espio's is also POG, and arguably more deftly. Although his color cycling behavior perhaps obscures this. At any rate, this realization made me appreciate his design more, which previously evoked "modified Metal Sonic" more than anything. Did Takumi Miyake have big plans for this character?

However, the trifecta was lost with Eukawa's revision with the complete loss of his green ridge and boots. Then, again modern Espio can be whatever damn color he wants, but... erm... yeah.



Interestingly, POG is complete in Eukawa's Big, arguably. His green lure isn't really part-and-parcel of his design, lost within his debut game via upgrades, and never coming up again.

Big is certainly the character who most contrasts with Sonic, so maybe I'm not totally off-base here.

Fang, Blaze, & Wave might be worth mentioning. They never had any green accents that I'm aware of, but all have orange. Although Fang's clothing is often depicted as brown as well as orange (artwork and in game, respectively). Brown, however, is just dark orange, so a meaningless distinction.

Thanks for reading this crap!

[Dr. BUGMAN]

It just now occured to me that Espio=purple, Vector=green, & Charmy=orange.

This surely means nothing.

[Wombatwarlord777]

I've noticed that too. I always assumed it was an indirect reference to the fact that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles fit nicely on the primary colors and are, largely, traditionally-heroic protagonists. Whereas the Chaotix don't always neatly fit into the heroic mold (at least in motives and demeanor) and appropriately have a somewhat quirkier color scheme to boot.

[Wombatwarlord777]

I was going to make an additional note that, in contrast to Bowser, the Joker, and other iconic villians, that it's surprising how Eggman makes use of no secondary colors, but I think that honestly might be simplifying things a bit much. After all, you can readily contrast Eggman's red to Sonic's blue; Red, yellow and grey are all relatively rare in natural vegetation and are associated with artificiality and / or danger; etc. etc.

But you do at least have a trio of baddies with a collective secondary colors scheme in Nack, Bean, and (arguably) Bark. Also, Jet the Hawk is forest green, which I've always found a little odd. I kind of assumed it was because they were running out of unused colors to assign to / associate with characters (something I also thought applied to Silver too, to a certain extent).

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Eggman also has blue in his pallet--his pince-nez. In fact, it is the same exact blue as Sonic's fur. Note also his shirt is the exact same as Sonic's sneakers, and his cape is a just-ever-so-slightly different yellow from Sonic's buckles. It's possible that for technical reasons they have the two sharing a pallet. It could maybe be because Eggman was intended to be the hero at one point, and quite possibly Eggman still thinks of himself as one.

And there's Metal Sonic who has a one-to-one pallet with Eggman. Dunno if there are any yellow bits in the other Mecha Sonics, but the number of villains sporting all three primaries outnumbers heroes regardless.

Secondaries being more natural is an interesting angle, not the least because Big's theme song mentions how natural he is(insofar an 8-foot tall quarter-ton purple humanoid cat can be "natural"), and Sonic might possibly be an unnatural product of Gerald's unholy tinkering, but I think we're inviting confirmation bias at this point.

I don't think the Chaotix being secondaries really clicked with me before because Charmy started out predominantly yellow--and to some extent still is--but later gained orange clothing. He's kind of the inverse of Tails in that way.

Bark didn't cross my mind because his secondaries are all accents, while he is predominantly... pale yellow?? And I guess I got distracted by purple. There are an inordinate number of purple critters. Also a lot of green birds that might have orangish bits or maybe yellowish bits... who knows for sure... this is why i should have stuck to characters with all three.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

On further thought, I guess it makes a modicum of sense that some(a lot of?) people -- most pertinently Ian Flynn -- lumped Bark and Bean with Fang on account that a), they were essentially tabalu rasa whose only appearance was an anarchic free-for-all, and b), Fang happens to be a traditional secondary color villain while they coincidentally slot into the other three places.

However, in Bean's case he's green to complete the RGB trifecta with his father and uncle. In Bark's case he just happens to have an orange toque... which is additionally red; moreover he's accented with both primaries and secondaries, save for blues and purples(both of which are "cool" colors, presumably this is so he better contrasts with his icy milieu. Green is "cool" but not "icy").

Compared to Bark it's more reasonable to define Charmy as orange on account most of his clothing is orange. Something perhaps true of Cream.

Come to think of it yellows and oranges are fairly uncommon, all things considered.

[Crazy Penguin]

The whole point of Eggman studying the Super Ring was to use it as a backdoor to Hidden Palace. At the end of the game, Eggman and Metal Sonic disappear inside the ring and it's boss fight time. You fight Red Metal Sonic even if you have all the Chaos Rings so what is powering him? I posit the Master Emerald, just like with the Mecha Sonic fight in S&K.

I've always been fond of the idea of using ring portals to remotely connect to a power source (for instance, opening a portal next to each of the 7 emeralds so that they're effectively all together, allowing you to use the power of all 7 while only physically possessing 1). But I think you're forgetting the story again.

Furthermore, he found two rings that were spitting images of the Super-Rings that were on the Floating Island. These were ancient Special Rings that had been used before the legendary civilization had been lost.

"With these, I'll find my way right back to the Master Emerald!"

Dr. Eggman was pleased with his discovery, but the "Stone of Power" that the Special Rings should have led him to had already been transferred [to somewhere else] in the Floating Island by the descending gods. However, the energy of the "Pillar" permeated in the mysterious space the Special Rings produced, and they crystallized into the Chaos Rings.

The Special Ring did take Eggman to Hidden Palace, but the Master Emerald had already been moved to the SA1 shrine. But the Pillar was still there, and it created the Chaos Rings right in front of him. He studied those to create the Dark Rings. Now, he DID also say, "If I search out the secret of the Special Rings, I'll not only get the secret of the rings that Sonic and his friends carry, but I'll also be able to summon the Master Emerald!" So maybe he had the idea of locking on to the Master Emerald's signal at some point and stealing it. But I think the cutscene shows clearly that Metal Sonic bonds with a Super Dark Ring (and Eggman presumably ends up in some kind of cockpit...or just temporarily fuses with him, DBZ style). In the bad ending we see this same Super Dark Ring destroy whatever Chaos Rings you have, Eggman pokes his head out of the ring and mocks you, then Metal Sonic burns a city. In the good ending, the combined power of all 6 Chaos Rings is presumably enough to destroy the Super Dark Ring (don't know why they didn't show that), thus de-powering Metal Sonic and preventing the bad ending. It is admittedly possible that the Super Dark Ring is acting as a portal to an energy source and its destruction simply cuts Metal Sonic off, but there's no hint of that, much less that Eggman managed to find the Master Emerald and remotely link to it.

There's an alternate translation of the Chaotix story on the Sonic Retro wiki. The story's pretty convoluted, so it's useful to look at two slightly different translations of the text.

When it talks about the Master Emerald being moved to the Floating Island by the gods, this seems to be a reference to the backstory presented in Sonic 3. So the Special Ring was supposed to lead to the original location of the Master Emerald, because the ring itself was from ancient times, but the Master Emerald had been moved to the Floating Island since then.

As for the Chaos Rings, they were formed inside the Special Stages. The Special Stages and Bonus Stages are the "mysterious space" filled with Pillar energy. The manual's section on the Bonus Stage reaffirms this.

The manual isn't too explicit about what the Dark Rings actually are...

"And when Knuckle arrived near the island, it was already too late. Eggman had succeeded in crystallizing the energy. He named the artificial ring the Dark Ring."

...but it really sounds like they're Eggman's artificial counterparts to the Chaos Rings. The only energy mentioned in the story is "Pillar energy", and since the naturally occurring Chaos Rings are described as crystallized Pillar energy, it's only logical that this is the same crystallized energy Eggman's artificial Dark Rings are made of.

The giant red Metal Sonic was powered by a giant Dark Ring, which is made from crystallized Master Emerald Pillar energy, so in a round-about way, he was being powered by the Master Emerald.

As you mentioned, the bad ending reveals more than the good ending does. Looking at both of them, we can reasonably extrapolate that the giant Dark Ring is more powerful than 5 Chaos Rings, but less powerful than all 6 Chaos Rings.

[Frieza2000]

Ah, a third translation! Thanks!

When it talks about the Master Emerald being moved to the Floating Island by the gods, this seems to be a reference to the backstory presented in Sonic 3. So the Special Ring was supposed to lead to the original location of the Master Emerald, because the ring itself was from ancient times, but the Master Emerald had been moved to the Floating Island since then.

It's never previously been implied that the Master Emerald's original shrine was not taken up as part of Angel Island, which is what you'd naturally assume happened given that it took an enormous landmass with it. The way I've always read it is that, since every single Special Ring on Angel Island led to Hidden Palace, Eggman assumes the one he finds here will do the same since these are ruins from the same civilization (we're presumably talking about a hyper ring because big gold rings always lead to the Special Stage and that's obviously not where Eggman ends up). They seem to have used Hidden Palace as a nexus, probably out of necessity - it would make no sense to expose something so precious unless they had no other way to make the portals work - which gives us an in-lore reason why the Special Rings on Angel Island were all hidden in some way. The fact that the next sentence describes the Pillar creating the Chaos Rings suggests that it did indeed transport him to the same spot as all of the other rings and he witnesses the scene described (the energy collecting in the portal he just entered through), inspiring his next line, "If I uncover the secret of this Special Ring, etc." This explains how he's able to access the Pillar energy for his studies, as you describe - while Knuckles is on his way down to Newtrogic, Eggman is at the Pillar. It also begs the question of whether or not a Chaos Ring is created every time somebody portals to Hidden Palace and the Master Emerald isn't capping the Pillar.

As for the Chaos Rings, they were formed inside the Special Stages. The Special Stages and Bonus Stages are the "mysterious space" filled with Pillar energy. The manual's section on the Bonus Stage reaffirms this.

That fits all 3 texts better, and makes much more sense. I was actually asking myself how they ended up in the Special Stage if Eggman was studying them. But it does explicitly say that the energy collects in the space created by THE Special Ring - the one Eggman just stepped through - which does not go to the Special Stage! So...I agree that they do go directly to the Special Stage, but the mechanics of how they get there are a little fuzzy. I don't see a translation of the Bonus Stage section on that page. Where did you get that?

The manual isn't too explicit about what the Dark Rings actually are ... but it really sounds like they're Eggman's artificial counterparts to the Chaos Rings. The only energy mentioned in the story is "Pillar energy", and since the naturally occurring Chaos Rings are described as crystallized Pillar energy, it's only logical that this is the same crystallized energy Eggman's artificial Dark Rings are made of.

I hadn't thought much about it, but that makes a lot of sense. Now, we can assume that Pillar energy is identical to Master Emerald energy because the Emerald sat on top of the Pillar for ages and visually appears to have grown out of it. And we know that Master Emerald energy is identical to Chaos Emerald energy because on two occasions Eggman's radar has mistaken the Master Emerald's energy signature for a Chaos Emerald (Sonic 3 manual (in one of the two translations I have - in the other it says emeralds, plural, implying it's the Angel Island set of emeralds) and the opening of SA2). The S&K manual describes it as "a huge deitied Chaos Emerald," which is probably an accurate description. The only functional difference from a Chaos Emerald we've witnessed is that it acts as a conduit for the consciousness of the gods and a prison for Tikal and Chaos. So the Chaos Rings are crystallized Chaos Emerald energy (thus the name Chaos Rings). But the emeralds are not just crystallized energy because they generate energy. Once the Chaos Rings are used up, they're gone. Thus their destruction in the bad ending, and possibly also the good ending (they and the Super Dark Ring could have destroyed each other).

Other odd observation. In the pre-boss cutscene, the Super Dark Ring starts off in a wire-frame cube (containment field? Interface?) and when it's deactivated, several of the ordinary Dark Rings fly out and scatter. Could the Super Dark Ring have been what he was using to generate all of the smaller rings? Was the cube made out of rings?

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Reading that again, it occurred to me that the Dark Ring could be the Chaos Ring Eggman witnessed being minted, only this one was corrupted by him somehow. If there are seven Emeralds, then it's likely there are seven CRs, too.

Also this:

The flickies were coming and going through subspaces by using Big Rings as they pleased. As Dr. Eggman thought this to himself, he quickly completed a "Big Ring Generation Machine."

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Anyways, would to stand to reason that Giant Rings functioning as goals from SA2-onwards might be because they're made by Eggman to zip around faster than otherwise possible? Maybe that's also why CEs are frequently seen outside SSes; they're no longer secure locations.

[chriscaffee]

Ah, a third translation! Thanks!

This is the translation I was referencing in my post. Here are the relevant portions:

"With this, I can reach the Master Emerald once again!"
Eggman was amazed by the discovery, but the "power stone" which the Special Ring was supposed to lead to was already transferred to the floating island by the gods that flew down from the sky.

And after this incident... It is said that the gods that came down from the sky restored part of the civilization as an "island," and released it into the sky along with the "power stone."

My interpretation was as follows: The Master Emerald was located at the SA-shrine 3000 years ago in the Mystic Ruins "Past" area. After Perfect Chaos destroys the Knuckles Clan, a portion of the Mystic Ruins is lifted into the sky (by means that are still a mystery) and the Master Emerald is relocated deep within the hidden palace. At the same time, a portion of the Mystic Ruins sinks into the ocean (possibly as a result of Chaos' doing since he is a water-based creatured that can control massive flood waters). The portion of the Mystic Ruins that flooded and sank was what would become the Neutrogic High Zone, and the original Master Emerald shrine is part of those ruins.

When Eggman finds the Super Ring in 'Chaotix,' it takes him to the abandoned SA-shrine, but the Master Emerald is no longer there. At some point after Chaotix, Knuckles discovers this original shrine and brings it back (somehow) to Angel Island. He builds the wood bridge to it. At some point after Sonic Mania, he relocates the Master Emerald to the original shrine.

It's never previously been implied that the Master Emerald's original shrine was not taken up as part of Angel Island, which is what you'd naturally assume happened given that it took an enormous landmass with it.

I disagree. I've always had issues with the Master Emerald shrine from Sonic Adventure. In the past, it seems to be sitting in a fairly shallow body of water, yet in the present it is suspended miles above the "surface" of Angel Island, as if it was in the open ocean. Now, anything is possible, perhaps the ruins that became Angel Island were sitting on a continental shelf, but that means that the majority of the island's surface was actually the ocean floor at one time. Also, you can see that the stone bridge to the shrine was broken, leaving the temple behind, but somehow the rest of the island rose with it. Where did the wooden bridge come from? The temple is fairly close to the shrine in the past. It's close enough that Tikal can spend quite a bit of time there regularly, so this isn't some arduous journey that takes weeks or months to get there on foot. But if you look at the landmass under the shrine in the Present, it's clear that miles of real estate underneath the shrine were pulled up into the sky but...again, the temple and most of the mystic ruins were left behind? Again, anything is possible, but it just doesn't sit right with me.

So, I think that the mountain we see in the past was taken into the sky and became Angel Island. The temple remained behind and became the Mystic Ruins. The shrine along with other ruins collapsed into the sea. When Angel Island crashed into the ocean in Sonic 3, the pillar energy awoke the original shrine, which is what caused the Neutrogic High Zone to appear. Knuckles goes to investigate...finds the Eggman and the original shrine.

The way I've always read it is that, since every single Special Ring on Angel Island led to Hidden Palace, Eggman assumes the one he finds here will do the same since these are ruins from the same civilization (we're presumably talking about a hyper ring because big gold rings always lead to the Special Stage and that's obviously not where Eggman ends up).

I assume that Eggman does believe it will take him to Hidden Palace, but it doesn't, it takes him to the original shrine instead. Also (and I realize that Sonic Mania and Sonic Adventure didn't exist when the story for Chaotix was written), keep in mind that Sonic Mania takes place after Knuckles' Chaotix, but before Sonic Adventure, and the Master Emerald is still in Hidden Palace Zone. So did Knuckles move the Master Emerald from Hidden Palace for Chaotix, but then return it just in time for Mania?

(Note: The reason I believe Mania takes place after Chaotix is because during the "Silver Sonic" phase of the Metal Sonic fight, there are two 'Sonic Adventure-Final Egg'-style green tubes with Metal Sonic bodies in them. The first body is obviously the original Metal Sonic and the second body is Metal Sonic "Kai" from Chaotix, which is said to use the CPU and Engine from the original Metal Sonic but has a newly built body.)

They seem to have used Hidden Palace as a nexus, probably out of necessity - it would make no sense to expose something so precious unless they had no other way to make the portals work - which gives us an in-lore reason why the Special Rings on Angel Island were all hidden in some way.

It was a Nexus, for the revived civilization that was defending it, not the original civilization that was exploiting it.

The fact that the next sentence describes the Pillar creating the Chaos Rings suggests that it did indeed transport him to the same spot as all of the other rings and he witnesses the scene described (the energy collecting in the portal he just entered through), inspiring his next line, "If I uncover the secret of this Special Ring, etc." This explains how he's able to access the Pillar energy for his studies, as you describe - while Knuckles is on his way down to Newtrogic, Eggman is at the Pillar.

Actually here is what it says in the new translation:

However, the mysterious dimensional space created by the special ring was filled up with the "pillar" energy and turned into a ring-shaped crystal substance called the "Chaos Ring".
"If I uncover the secret of this Special Ring, I'll be able to summon the Master Emerald, not to mention find the secret of the rings that Sonic and his gang has!"

It sounds to me like Dr. Eggman (in contradiction with my above theory) entered the Special Stage. Normally Chaos Emeralds are found there. He found no Chaos Emerald and no Master Emerald, because the Master Emerald is in the real world in Hidden Palace Zone. The Master Emerald's energy, however, was still reacting inside the Special Stage, and created the Chaos Ring. Similar to how it also rose an island out of the middle of the ocean randomly. Since Chaos Emeralds seem to have a tendency to slip into Special Stages from the real world, perhaps, he figured he could "pull the Master Emerald" into this Special Stage and capture it that way, if he studied the rings. It also makes sense that he went to the Special Stage because Super Rings send you to the Special Stage, and Hyper Rings send you to Hidden Palace.

Is it confirmed that the Ring that Eggman travels in the end was a Dark Ring? I thought that was the original Super Ring that he discovered? I assumed the "Square" around it was his scanners or whatever studying the ring.

[chriscaffee]

And now I have done some more thinking.

It's pretty clear in the Windii translation that Eggman is inside a Special Stage where he expected to find the Master Emerald, except it was already relocated to Angel Island. Did the Knuckles Clan (or whoever) use this ring to extract the Master Emerald into the real world thousands of years ago, perhaps even prior to the events of Sonic Adventure? Now there is an interesting thought. If this particular Special Stage is a unique "Master Emerald Special Stage" it's possible that's why Chaos Rings are being created.

Also, what exactly is the pillar? Do we know for sure it is the Master Emerald altar in Hidden Palace, or is it possible it could be the Master Emerald itself? Or is the entire room, all 8 altars and the Emeralds that sit on them? Knuckles is charged as being the guardian of the pillar in Sonic 3 and the Master Emerald Pillar in Chaotix, but as far as I can see, the pillar is never mentioned in Sonic & Knuckles. I wonder if the story wasn't fully fleshed out by the time Sonic 3 released and the Master Emerald and the Pillar were intended to be one and the same. That's why we get the verbiage "Master Emerald Pillar" in Chaotix as an attempt to merge the two terms to describe on concept. Or it could be that the pillar just refers to the Hidden Palace Shrine as a whole. Just curious if we know definitively what the pillar is referring to. If it means the collective "shrine" then that includes the Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald. That makes more sense to me than the specific cradle that the Master Emerald sits on.

I think part of the problem for me is nothing in the Hidden Palace Zone resembles a pillar other than the purple-colored pillars and the background rock formations. There is nothing about the shrine that says "pillar" to me. The term is also only used in Chaotix and Sonic 3 if I'm not mistaken, and we never even visit Hidden Palace in either of those games, so it's hard to clarify what they were getting at. I think I'll flip through the S&K manual and see if I can find any mention of it, maybe in another section.

[Frieza2000]

Reading that again, it occurred to me that the Dark Ring could be the Chaos Ring Eggman witnessed being minted, only this one was corrupted by him somehow. If there are seven Emeralds, then it's likely there are seven CRs, too.

This relies or on whether the manual is referring to a single or multiple Chaos+Dark Ring(s). Two of the three translations (including Windii's) refer to "the Dark Ring," suggesting there's only one and leading to the assumption that it's referring to the big ring we destroy at the end. But we know there are multiple Dark Rings because enemies drop them and all 5 bosses are powered by them. If there are multiple Dark Rings and Eggman only saw one Chaos Ring get created, then the big ring could potentially be a Chaos Ring (even though it doesn't look like one at all). But if there were multiple Chaos Rings formed then it wouldn't make sense for Eggman to have only grabbed one, and if "the Dark Ring" referred to in the two translations is the big ring then it's not a naturally created Chaos Ring because all 3 translations call the Dark Ring(s) artificial/synthetic, right after describing that Eggman had succeeded in crystallizing Pillar energy (i.e., they're artificial Chaos Rings).

Anyways, would to stand to reason that Giant Rings functioning as goals from SA2-onwards might be because they're made by Eggman to zip around faster than otherwise possible? Maybe that's also why CEs are frequently seen outside SSes; they're no longer secure locations.

Goal rings have appeared in levels Eggman never had a presence in, but I really like the concept! Flickies' Island does come after Chaotix and shortly before SA1, so it makes sense both in terms of Eggman's technology logically progressing after studying the Special Ring and in terms of when we start seeing big rings used as goals. It's the last game where the emeralds are in the Special Stage other than Heroes, excluding handheld. Also, Sonic R comes shortly after Flickies' Island and features that seemingly infinite ring dispenser. Could be another step on the same technology ladder!

Realistically, the Dimension Ring Generator should have been a huge game changer for Eggman. Fiction rarely captures how much of a force multiplier a teleporter is both militarily and economically. It only opens portals to the Flickie dimension (probably the Special Stage), and he probably can't build a base in there anymore like he intended, but he could still use it as a pass-through to effectively teleport anywhere that he can open a portal (like using Nether portals as a shortcut in Minecraft). The only way this wouldn't have made him immensely more powerful is if it only worked on Flickies' Island or if the Flickies found a way to lock him out.

But if you look at the landmass under the shrine in the Present, it's clear that miles of real estate underneath the shrine were pulled up into the sky but...again, the temple and most of the mystic ruins were left behind?

Ok, you've got me there. The NPC dialogue in SA1 actually says the altar is "in front of the gate," so the transition from the temple to the altar isn't abridging any significant distance; it's literally a matter of yards. So if the Master Emerald rose the island while it was on the shrine altar then it put itself at the very edge of the island, which would be weird. Maybe it was moved to Hidden Palace before the island ascended. The shrine IS at the edge of the island in SA1, which is where it would be if it was taken up with the rest of it, but I do agree that the way the shrine is floating on its own in SA1 doesn't line up with that, and the mountains are in the wrong place, etc. Either the gods were being weird again or it got brought up (probably by the gods) from Neutrogic.

But I don't think that shrine is where the Special Ring takes him because the Pillar isn't there and he needs to somehow get a source of Pillar energy to mass produce Dark Rings. Saying it takes him to the Special Stage makes sense in terms of his witnessing the creation of the Chaos Rings and potentially giving him access to Pillar energy, but if the Special Ring is just like every other big ring in every game then why is this a significant discovery? Surely he'd seen them before! The manual says "he discovered a Super Ring identical to the one on the floating island. It was an ancient Special Ring that was used by the legendary civilization before it was lost." The Hyper Rings are unique to Angel Island (and are visually distinct, at least in gameplay), while big rings are everywhere, so that fits the sentence better. He would also not expect to find the Master Emerald in the Special Stage, which is where he would expect a big ring to take him, because it's never been in there as far as we know.

Is it confirmed that the Ring that Eggman travels in the end was a Dark Ring? I thought that was the original Super Ring that he discovered? I assumed the "Square" around it was his scanners or whatever studying the ring.

You know what? That's a good point. Here, let's make this convenient.


I completely forgot that the regular bosses are also powered by Dark Rings. They're bigger than the ones powering badniks, but smaller than the ring in the end cutscenes. Inside the cube it looks exactly like a portal ring, but then when he deactivates it normal rings fly out, then it looks...completely unique. It no longer rotates, and it's darker and thinner than a portal ring. It might be the same tone as the big Dark Rings, but it's hard to say. Maybe it's meant to be a combination of the two, as if he somehow corrupted the original Special Ring similar to what Dr. BUGMAN suggested (Dark Rings are just crystallized Pillar energy, but they don't look like the naturally occurring Chaos Rings, so maybe whatever causes that corruption affected the Special Ring).

Here's something we've been overlooking though: the ending only makes sense if Eggman can no longer produce Dark Rings. Destroying the cutscene ring is the difference between a good and bad ending, and given that he never makes Dark Rings in future games it follows that this cutscene ring is what was allowing him to make them. If he can't reproduce it, then it must be something he found, i.e. the Special Ring he finds in the manual. Dark Rings are just crystallized Pillar energy, so that means that either 1) the Special Ring was a critical part of the crystallization process, or 2) the Special Ring is what gave him access to Pillar energy. Coming back to my earlier point, big rings can be found anywhere, ergo the Special Ring HAS to be a Hyper Ring, otherwise he could set up shop again basically anywhere and make more Dark Rings. Hyper Rings are only on Angel Island as far as we know, and setting up a base there would not be practical with Knuckles around, so by destroying his captive Hyper Ring we prevent him from creating any more Dark Rings. In Flickies' Island he figures out how to make Special Stage portals himself, but he probably needs to open them from the outside or some such restriction, and if he could get close enough to the Master Emerald to set one up then he could just steal it.

But there's a better version of this idea that fits the cutscene more closely. Here's my new theory. The wire-frame cube with a portal ring inside is the Special Ring he found, a typical Hyper Ring going to Hidden Palace. The cube represents his machine harvesting Pillar energy through it. He then either closed the portal intentionally out of arrogance (because he didn't need it anymore and didn't want his enemies to escape through it) or sucked so much through it at once that it destabilized, collapsing into 50 normal rings ala S3&K. What was left behind was just a really big Dark Ring that he was in the middle of creating: his master plan all along. In the good ending we destroy this Super Dark Ring, thus de-powering Metal Sonic Kai, but the real reason we've won the day is because Eggman no longer has access to a Hyper Ring. Whatever caused it to close, it's gone. And the only other place to get one is guarded by a very aggressive echidna.

It's possible that the intent of the wire-frame cube was to show a portal generating machine, which fits with Eggman believing that studying the Special Ring (learning how to create them) would allow him to steal the Master Emerald, and with the development of the ring tether, and makes him closing it seem less reckless, but then the ending wouldn't make sense because he would just make a new portal generating machine the next day (unless he found a portal generating machine and the manual just didn't mention it). I wouldn't put it past Sonic Team, though.

Earlier I asked myself how Pillar Energy rising into the Special Ring could create Chaos Rings in the Special Stage if the Special Ring is just a bridge from Neutrogic to Hidden Palace. Maybe the way that Hyper Rings work is to briefly cross through the Special Stage, similar to how Scorpion from Mortal Kombat or Nightcrawler from X-Men teleport by briefly warping in and out of Hell, and the Pillar energy got stuck in there because of the way it reacts with the physics of that Zone (which could also explain why it only crystallizes there and not in our world).

I'll rant about the Pillar another day.

Fun fact: Amy's in the sound test.

[Frieza2000]

Before I rant, I wanted to rave a bit about the absurdity of this situation. I'm fine with having to reconcile seemingly contradictory facts or speculate about tertiary elements of the story like the history of the Knuckle Clan or the geography of Angel Island or Robotnik's financial situation - things nobody at Sonic Team probably gave much thought to. But right now we're sitting here trying to figure out WHAT THE PLOT OF CHAOTIX WAS. What is the deal with this series?! We're not trying to decipher ancient Sumerian religious texts; these are video game instruction manuals! I guess it's kind of charming that they leave some of it to the imagination, but we're talking about the basic events of the game. Even the damn cutscenes are vague and confusing. I mean, we still don't know what the intended meaning of the Hidden Palace scene was TO THIS DAY! This isn't some obscure trivia nobody bothered defining; SOMEBODY intended these scenes to convey SOMETHING, and that person is almost certainly still alive! Has nobody asked them? They may not remember after all this time, but it would be nice to have at least some kind of answer! Smile, you're good at that kind of stuff. Think we could track down whoever wrote these things and ask a few questions? The Chaotix backstory and final boss, what happened to Angel Island's native set of emeralds in the intro, what the Pillar is, and the Hidden Palace cutscene - if we can just find out what the original intent of these was then I'll be satisfied.

Anyway, Chris raises a good point. It's entirely possible that the crystal pillar was just a vague way of describing the Master Emerald before we were introduced to it. The Sonic 3 manual doesn't mention the Master Emerald at all, and the S&K manual doesn't mention the Pillar at all. S3 said the Pillar is "the thing which protects [Knuckles's] friends," which certainly sounds like the emerald. Windii translates it as "the crystal 'pillar' of the Chaos Emeralds." I'm not sure what to make of that. Does Pillar refer to the Hidden Palace altar as a whole, as Chris suggested? This seems unlikely, as in the same manual that's called "the Chaos Emeralds' altar" several times. Or is it possible that the term pillar is used metaphorically to denote the relationship between the Master and Chaos Emeralds? Can the Japanese work that way?

All 4 translations say that the island's 7 Chaos Emeralds "control the power of the 'Pillar' that sleeps in the depths of the island." From a modern perspective we're told that it's the Master that controls/neutralizes the Chaos Emeralds, not the other way around, but it's totally possible that was the direction they wanted to go at the time (which has some implications for the Super Emeralds - maybe by restoring the Chaos Emeralds it becomes possible to unlock the Master Emerald's full power, or just to remotely access it through the Chaos Emeralds, and that's what the glowing represents).

I don't think bringing the Pillar terminology back in Chaotix supports this, though. If S&K intended to retcon it into the Master Emerald then mentioning it again in Chaotix only adds to the confusion. While it calls it "Master Emerald Pillar" twice, it continues using the terms Pillar and Pillar energy throughout. If the goal was to conflate Pillar and Master Emerald, they would've stopped using the anachronistic term immediately after doing so and the new 'on brand' term would've dominated the document. So even if they were originally intended to be the same thing, I think Chaotix intends them to be different things. It does not seem to be a metaphoric description, nor is it referring to the altar or Hidden Palace itself, as it produces its own "Pillar energy" even with no emeralds present on the altar.



The fact that 'Pillar' is always written in quotes suggests it's not literally a pillar, but it does seem to be a physical thing (at least in Chaotix). If we're not dealing with a retcon then all I could point to is that bed of crystals the Master Emerald is sitting on (the little green crystals growing up around the emerald would be crystallized Pillar energy slowly leaking up from it). Maybe it has some depth, but that would make it more of a crystal shaft than a pillar. If it IS a retcon and the original intent was to describe the Master Emerald or the altar then it obviously isn't in the picture, and in future appearances of Hidden Palace we should expect to see something new representing it.


Maybe that turquoise light on the floor is made of crystal?

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Hirokazu Yasuhara claims credit for the "Mary Garnet" story, so I assume he was responsible for Sonic 1-R's continuity. He may have even oversaw CD and the Game Gear games, in a similar manner to how Ohshima approved new characters.

It's possible that this pillar could be a pillar of light?

Also, has it been conjectured yet that the powering up of the CEs sequence maybe the residual power of Perfect Chaos being siphoned off into them? And maybe in a sense Knuckles was inclined to believe Eggman's canard because Hyper Sonic is in a way powered by the fabled "dragon"? And the sequence of Chaos depleting the Emeralds was his reclaiming said energy and why they were robbed of the ability to endow a Hyper form? (I honestly not sure I'm subconsciously regurgitating something already said.)

[Dr. BUGMAN]

And according to Wikipedia:

A light pillar is an atmospheric optical phenomenon in the form of a vertical band of light which appears to extend above and/or below a light source. The effect is created by the reflection of light from numerous tiny ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere or clouds. The light can come from the Sun (usually when it is near or even below the horizon) in which case the phenomenon is called a sun pillar or solar pillar. It can also come from the Moon or from terrestrial sources such as streetlights.

I've been sensing a meteorological theme to the Emeralds and rings. It would tie in neatly with the aeronautical underpinnings of the series.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Also tangentially related:

The origins of the Chaoskampf myth most likely lie in the Proto-Indo-European religion[citation needed] whose descendants almost all feature some variation of the story of a storm god fighting a sea serpent representing the clash between the forces of order and chaos. Early work by German academics such as Gunkel and Bousset in comparative mythology popularized translating the mythological sea serpent as a "dragon."

Chaos being referred to as a "dragon" has anthropological precedent! Also there's meteorological implications of Sonic being a "storm god"!

[Frieza2000]

It's possible that this pillar could be a pillar of light?

Depends if the word is a Romanization or an actual Japanese word that everyone keeps translating as 'pillar'. If it's English then yes, the various metaphorical uses the word has in English could apply. If it's Japanese then they may have their own such uses. Random machine translation says the simple Romaji would be 柱 and the Hiragana would be はしら, and I don't see either of those.

My pet theory for the Pillar has always been that it's actually a horizontally oriented mono-directional portal a dozen or so feet under the ground that goes either to a particular section of the Special Stage or a unique zone (like Chris's Master Emerald Special Stage idea, or perhaps to the realm of the 'gods' themselves) that is absolutely overflowing with chaos energy, and that over thousands of years bits of energy leaked out and the physics of our dimension caused it to crystallize immediately, gradually forming a crystal pillar over the mouth of the portal. This pillar serves as a limited conductor that allowed the ancient civilization(s) to access that zone's energy. Eggman accesses it actively in Chaotix, but the altar may have been designed to make use of passive emissions that it gives off (that would almost certainly be the reason it was built over it/near it). This would make the Pillar itself the equivalent of a giant cylindrical Chaos Ring hiding the real secret of its power below.

Also, has it been conjectured yet that the powering up of the CEs sequence maybe the residual power of Perfect Chaos being siphoned off into them?

When he destroyed the world 3000 years ago, Chaos got all of his power by absorbing the negative energy of the brilliant cut Chaos Emeralds (having basically none of his own), so you're suggesting that this energy was trapped in the Master Emerald along with him? That was basically my original theory back in 2005, except instead of involving Chaos (who remained in the emerald well after S&K, and if it were possible to draw the energy he'd absorbed back out of the Master Emerald without freeing him then surely it would've been done long ago) it was just that the Knuckle Clan gave the ME a portion of the 'power' of the Chaos Emeralds, thus downgrading them to the octagonal/hexagonal form. Bear in mind, the emeralds are not just batteries - they generate energy - so the downgrade would have to result in them having a lower maximum amplitude or at least a lower capacity. I theorized this was either a safety measure to weaken the individual Chaos Emeralds or that it was necessary in order to get Angel Island off the ground (I thought the ME and CEs were neutralizing each other and this shifted the balance to favor the ME, thus explaining why the island couldn't rise at the end of SA1 when it was next to the restored CEs - an idea Smile debunked long ago). Chris eventually converted me to the fusion theory, since that doesn't require retconning the Angel Island emeralds from the S3 manual, it finds some support in the Lost World mural, and it makes more sense in general.

Also, the legend was about a dragon egg, not an actual dragon, but I like the idea. We don't know the whole legend, so maybe we could say the Death Egg was the egg whose arrival would shortly lead to the 'hatching' of Chaos from the Master Emerald.

Chaos being referred to as a "dragon" has anthropological precedent!

Indeed, I've often heard "the deep" and "the waters" in Genesis 1:2 referred to as primordial chaos, and mention of Leviathan and sea monsters later in the Bible are considered allusions to the same concept.

Also, I totally forgot there's a picture of Neutrogic!

Too low poly to draw a lot of conclusions, but it looks like it rose a not-unreasonable distance from the shore because there's a bridge going presumably to the mainland. I wonder if that was already there or if Eggman constructed it.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

The Japanese Wiki page uses 太陽柱. I cross checked the Chaotix manual and it shows up in there for the story section.

Then there's the ME being used to generate a laser through a lens here:


It may be possible that there's some sort of aperture on the underside of Angle Island built there for whatever reason, or maybe even a naturally occurring one.

As for the Emeralds generating their own power, I'm not entirely sure about that. For one thing there's that one scene in Sonic Adventure where the Chao are singing for Chaos; this seems to be sustaining him rather than just appeasing him, like they're indirectly feeding him by enriching the Emeralds with positive energy. The Knuckles Clan's coup d'etate caused negative energy from the Chao and the echidnas to be fed into Chaos thereby catalyzing his transformation.

[Frieza2000]

Where do you see 柱? Could you circle it?

As for the Emeralds generating their own power, I'm not entirely sure about that.

How can they have unlimited power, as Tails tells us, if they don't generate it? Do you think they're being recharged in the Special Stage? Earlier I proposed that they literally convert thoughts/emotions into power, as Tikal says, and also carry a finite store of already-converted positive and negative chaos energy. The Chaos/Dark Rings, on the other hand, are finite and when they run out of energy they just disintegrate.

For one thing there's that one scene in Sonic Adventure where the Chao are singing for Chaos; this seems to be sustaining him rather than just appeasing him, like they're indirectly feeding him by enriching the Emeralds with positive energy.

I have pet theories about the chao using their singing to various effects, but even I don't see any basis for what you're proposing in the actual scene. They sing, and the water ripples a few times. The emeralds are never in focus and there's no indication of energy. And we're not talking about the 16-bit era here; these scenes had actual directing. We can speculate, but be honest with yourself. The theory fits the scene but is in no way implied by it.

The Knuckles Clan's coup d'etate caused negative energy from the Chao and the echidnas to be fed into Chaos thereby catalyzing his transformation.

He clearly absorbs the emeralds. Tikal looks to the sky when she hears him roar, implying he became Perfect Chaos and is either flying or is a towering figure in the distance. She then reasons that the Master Emerald controls the power of the Chaos Emeralds and would therefore be able to stop Chaos because he's powered by the emeralds. She later tells us that he's still filled with anger and sadness and confirms to Sonic that trapping him in the Master Emerald doesn't neutralize his negativity. Moreover, if Chaos gained power enough to destroy the world through exposure to the massacre's negative energy, why does Eggman need the emeralds to power him up? There's plenty of negative energy to go round when he's involved (think of how many animal friends he kidnaps on a regular basis)!

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Because the alter is the only place he can feed off the Emeralds indirectly, like how its simulacrum in the Ark implies it's a place designed to harness CE energy. He took the Emeralds with him because he didn't want to destroy his alter, and also maybe doing such would allow him to feed on more negative energy his rampage causes (feedback loops again).

As for the "chao singing" scene, it explains how Tikal learned her mantra but doesn't tip its hand that emotions=CE energy. Chaos being an animal driven by emotions rather than an intrinsic force of destruction is something intended to be the big reveal for the climax.

As for "limitless energy," well if they're powered by life forces and life is abound, then they are unlimited in their power.

be honest with yourself.

Sigh

[Wombatwarlord777]

As for "limitless energy," well if they're powered by life forces and life is abound, then they are unlimited in their power.

This might not be exactly what you're talking about, but the Emeralds do seem to have a limited capacity for energy storage and output, but can recharge themselves auromatically, making them unlimited sources of energy in at least the long-term.

And the games have stated multiple times that the Emeralds are powered by emotion (and possibly life itself; I can't find anything directly stating that, but they are said to give life to all things, so obviously there has to be some sort of feedback loop. And then the Emeralds are restored in Unleashed using the planet's power, so make of that what you will). How exactly does that relate to the Special Stages? They're clearly strongholds for the Emeralds themselves, designed to ensure that not just any old joe schmoe can access them. But are they strictly physical places that are totally independent of the Chaos Emeralds, or in some way generated and affected by the Emeralds themselves? That might explain why the structure and appearance of the Special Stages change in every game. Do they alter themselves based on what thoughts and emotions are currently powering the Emeralds?

If that's the case, then it was a missed opportunity to forego the Chaos Emeralds and Special Stages in Sonic Forces. Can you imagine a set of Special Stages with a melancholic, subdued, or even violent tone?

[Frieza2000]

Sigh

Sorry, that probably sounded condescending, but if you honestly think the direction of that scene shows intent to convey transference of anything to either Chaos or the emeralds then I think you're nuts. It certainly doesn't contradict the idea, but no such thing is suggested by a plain reading of it or the game as a whole. And if that's not what you think then ok, cool, I'm down with theory crafting that runs opposite of author intent as long as we recognize it as such. In other words, don't use language like-

They're clearly strongholds for the Emeralds

Yes, like that! There's nothing clear about that! That is one of dozens of equally likely possible explanations for the Special Stage!

Anyway, from your last post I think we're basically on the same page? The emeralds are powered by heart, and Chaos draws power from them? If further evidence is needed, the strategy guide states "in attacking Tikal and the Chao, he incurred the wrath of Chaos. Strengthened by the power of the seven emeralds, Chaos went berserk." So his power comes from the emeralds directly, and thus (theoretically) from heart indirectly. You could suppose that he draws some additional power from emotions directly, but there's no real evidence for that.

Actually, there's a pretty solid explanation of what was going on with Chaos in the guide.

"His negative emotions having been amplified by the Chaos Emeralds, Chaos was driven into an unstoppable rage. The 'forces of disorder' exerted by Chaos, who had lost his 'heart' to his anger, were 'subdued' within the Master Emerald along with Tikal’s consciousness. The poem tells of a pure 'power' neither good nor evil contained within the Chaos Emeralds themselves, and the need for this power to be restrained by the Master Emerald. This, however, is both correct and incorrect: Though revived in the present, Chaos with his hollow 'heart' was still shackled by anger and hatred; his power, too, was again being further strengthened by the Chaos Emeralds. While the Master Emerald could restrain Chaos, it was not able to appease his boiling emotions. ... Sonic and his comrades used 'faith' to drawn on the power of the Chaos Emeralds, and faced Chaos again. This 'power of the heart' filled the emptiness within Chaos’ own, appeasing his anger. Now freed from the bonds of anger and hatred, Chaos took a fresh look at the Chao for whom he had sacrificed everything to defend. Since the Echidnas’ past aggression, the existence of other species had been an object for Chaos’ hatred. However, seeing how the Chao now lived alongside with humans, he came to understand that different species could in fact coexist with each other peacefully. It was Sonic and his friends’ 'faith' which made Chaos realize this, and there was no need for this 'power of the heart' to be subdued by the Master Emerald. Sonic embodied the proper use of 'power.'"

Kind of makes you wonder. If Sonic were to transform in anger, would he go berserk as well? Even Shadow's always been in a relatively calm and heroic state of mind when he goes Super. It could just be that Chao minds, or Chaos's in particular, are susceptible to emotional overload, but it's interesting to think that we could have an evil Super Sonic if he just has a sufficiently bad day.

As for the "chao singing" scene, it explains how Tikal learned her mantra

Prior to visiting the altar, she tells Tails that she learned the poem from her grandmother. Her gasping in the last flashback suggests she didn't understand its meaning until that moment, at least concerning the "thoughts into power" idea. Witnessing the singing may have been part of what led her to that epiphany, but again there's no evidence for this in the scene itself.

the games have stated multiple times that the Emeralds are powered by emotion

The only game that explicitly mentions a connection between the user's heart and the power of the emeralds is SA1. Ex: "the 7 Emeralds can change our thoughts into power," "there are seven chaos in the world and this chaos is power, and this power is drawn from the heart. He who controls the world is he who controls this chaos," "Sonic and his comrades used 'faith' to drawn on the power of the Chaos Emeralds." I don't think any of the other games even imply this. You might be thinking of the Sonic 1 manual, which says they "[give] energy to all living things" / "supply all life with amazing power," which is a transference in the opposite direction.